Yet another build along!! (formerly kayak foundry?)

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FishingSETX
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Yet another build along!! (formerly kayak foundry?)

Post by FishingSETX »

anyone use it? Anyone ever built a yak from it?
I modified a design I found on the net to make it shorter. I'm thinking of building it, but want some opinions on the accuracy of the software first. I'm attaching the design for review.
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Last edited by FishingSETX on Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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gerald
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Re: Kayak Foundry Software?

Post by gerald »

Yes. I've built quite a few boats designed with Kayak Foundry. In fact, I built the very first boat ever finished that was designed with Kayak Foundry. The program does very well withiin it's limits. Quite simple and easy to use.
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Re: Kayak Foundry Software?

Post by Pogo »

Gerald, could you expand on what "within its limits" means? I know how to read finished design drawings, but never played with designing.
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Re: Kayak Foundry Software?

Post by gerald »

Pogo wrote:Gerald, could you expand on what "within its limits" means? I know how to read finished design drawings, but never played with designing.
Pogo,
You would like Ross Leidy, the engineer of Kayak Foundry. He seems to lean toward traditional eskimo type kayaks--very similar to the Outer Island. As a result his program is slanted toward the more traditional kayak shape. In the years since he started he has added more flexibility in the program so you can do more with it now than you use to. Don't get me wrong, I think this is a great program. Very easy to use. It's still no substitue for knowledge of boat design but it's a very nice program. I designed the srchr16 and several marathon boats with it--including my current marathon boat (the one I'm bringing to the TKFBBR). Ross Leidy gave me a golden guinea pic award for being the first to build a boat designed with his program. That was several years ago--he may not remember by now. I would hope so--you always remember your first....
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Re: Kayak Foundry Software?

Post by Pogo »

Well, that didn't answer my question worth a hoot. But not because the explanation -- for which I thank you -- was lacking, but because I'm just plain ol' too uneducated in boat design to understand it. Heck, I'm still unclear on even simple hydrostatic concepts such as prismatic coefficients. I wonder what a good way might be to get my head wrapped around the basics? I've read a couple books, but either failed to retain much, or I'm just plain dense. :P

Would playing with KF help to give a more hands-on approach, y' think? Does it give you all that technical stuff?
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Re: Kayak Foundry Software?

Post by gerald »

You'll just have to try it. Small paddled craft design is very subtle. Little things mean big differences--over time. It MAY help you understand. There's a lot of information there. And the stock plan that you begin with is a lot like the Outer Island.

If you really want to get confused use Freeship Plus. That's what I'm currently using. BIG learning curve--not in boat design--in using the program.
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Re: Kayak Foundry Software?

Post by Pogo »

Ha ha, yep -- I've already had my @$$ kicked by Freeship. :P And me, a (former) AutoCAD guru! :P :P
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Re: Kayak Foundry Software?

Post by FishingSETX »

I fought with scaling down the basic design that KF came with for hours, but ne3ver could get it right. Finally I just stole another design off the net and scaled it down. Hopefully it comes out well!!!! I plan on printing it out this week, and trying to cut out the forms this weekend!!! Now if I could just get work to leave me alone for a few months and give me a good raise, I might to finish a project!! :D :D

Image
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Re: Kayak Foundry Software?

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Ok another question!! I printed out the forms (59 pages!!!!!), and have started assembling them. Im having a problem with the registration marks lineing up. Some of them are a mm or so wider/narrower than the page they should attach too. also, sometimes the pattern piece on the top of a page lines up fine, but the piece on the side of a page doesn't. Im having to cut pages in half and line them up that way. anyone who has used the software had this problem? Should I scrap the printouts and try again? Will a mm here or there on the forms throw the design off enough to worry about?
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Re: Kayak Foundry Software?

Post by DarrellS »

I am not sure, but a mm on an 8 inch paper is going to be substantial over 14 feet.
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Re: Kayak Foundry Software?

Post by gerald »

No, I don't have that problem. You may need to calibrate your printer. In all cases I use the registration marks. Very little discrepancy.
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Re: Kayak Foundry Software?

Post by FishingSETX »

I calibrated my printer before I started printing and checked it three times. I also checked the actual forms last night after posting, and they areall almost exactly the size they should be. its just that the register marks dont line up! I printed reference lines every 1" and they also match up and are to scale!! I may finish assembling the forms and check the measurements. if they are the same as the design, then I may use them. if not, ill scrap them and start over :( the bad thin is they didn't start getting off untill about page 20 of 59!!!
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Re: Kayak Foundry Software?

Post by Pogo »

Forgive me if I'm stating the obvious here, but have you asked Ross Leidy about this?
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Re: Kayak Foundry Software?

Post by FishingSETX »

I just recieved a reply from Mr. Leidy on the Blue Heron Kayak forum. I posted the same question a day or two ago, and just got a responce. He said that if the forms were placed on the layout widthwise more than lengthwise, the error could be caused by the software's rounding the values. He also said that if the 1" reference marks are correct, then the forms should still be good. makes sence because they are off lengthwise (up/down) and not off widthwise (left/right). Thanks for the help and Ill keep you posted. Im going to keep going and see where it leads!!
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Re: Kayak Foundry Software?

Post by cheapsk8 »

Pics we need Pics, I am digging all theses build alongs :clap:
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Re: Kayak Foundry Software?

Post by Pogo »

cheapsk8 wrote:I am digging all theses build alongs :clap:
Man, you ain't whistlin' dixie 'bout that! I've been waiting a long, long time, and I'm sure Gerald can agree, to see TKF'ers turn on to boat building as a highly rewarding aspect of kayak fishing. It's wonderful to see. But FishingSETX hasn't got anything to take pictures of just yet, he's still working on printing out paper patterns from which to make forms with which to build a mold on which to start a stripper project . . . which will result in a boat he has designed himself. Too cool!
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Re: Kayak Foundry Software?

Post by bowgarguide »

Boy I am way behind,most of the time I design what I want in my head,think about it for a couple weeks .then break out the saw and sander and go to work.
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Re: Kayak Foundry Software?

Post by FishingSETX »

Ok guys,

I plan on documenting every step of the build with photo's. That way I have record of my mistakes whenever the next build comes along!!

Here is the first step (design):

I picked a design off the blue heron kayak site and scaled it down to 14' (from 16'). I had to add some tweaks to make it float my 180 lbs. The design displacement is ~250 lbs. I plan on building the yak out of 3/16 pine and western red cedar strips and glassing it with 4 oz cloth. I want this thing to be LIGHT. Its not really going to be a fishing yak, just something to hit calm waters in and paddle/sight see. If I want to fish, ill take my bimini or ultimate.

Image


Second step is printing and assembling the forms. When I took this pic, I had almost put together a 3X4 square of 8.5X11 paper. I now have a piece thats 3X11!!! Thats a piece 82.5" wide and 30" long!!! My wife cant wait till I cut the forms out and get them of the livingroom floor!! Onle 33 more pieces to be lined up and taped together!!

Image


Got another question for you guys that paddle/build sit in yaks. Do these numbers look big enough for a 5'7" 180 lbs paddler?

Kayak
Cockpit
Aft edge to CG 14"
Length 2' 3"
Width 19.5"
Fore Edge Height 12.9"
Aft Edge Height 10.2"
Aft Edge Position 8' 8.6"

The 19.5" width gives me 2.25" on each side of my hips, but im worried about the 2'3" length. Is this the total length of the cockpit or is this the length of the cockpit opening? Im leaning towards opening, but just want to be sure

BTW,

this will be a long drawnout build since right now Im working 8 hrs+ per day, 7 days a week. Only free time I have is about 1-2 hrs in the evenings most evenings :x :( :x oh well at least I can buy supplies :D
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Re: Kayak Foundry Software?

Post by FishingSETX »

bowgarguide wrote:Boy I am way behind,most of the time I design what I want in my head,think about it for a couple weeks .then break out the saw and sander and go to work.
Ron
LOL, if I did that, id just end up with a big ugly boat that would either sink with a 5yo paddler or would float a house and paddle like a barge!! Maybe one of these days, but as of now, I have to use some help!!
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Re: Yet another build along!! (formerly kayak foundry?)

Post by TexaRican »

Oh boy, I'm going to enjoy watching this one! Nice thread title BTW :D
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Re: Yet another build along!! (formerly kayak foundry?)

Post by Pogo »

First of all I like your idea of keeping the boat as lightweight as possible, a notion that's after my own heart. I have two thoughts about the strip thickness; first, I've used 3/16" strips on a few boats, but now use a thickness more like .21" or so. Don't really know, but it's thicker than 3/16" and thinner than a full 1/4". The thing is, you lose some thickness to sanding and fairing, and can end up with a wood core that's simply too dang thin. Most the time you can live with it, but if it occurs in an unfortunate place can really be a PITA.

So one of two things, or maybe both: go a little thicker . . . not much, but a little, and second, pay especial attention to getting accurate glue joints as close to 100% of the time as humanly possible. Not talking about those tapering fitted ends, but where strip lengths match edge-to-edge just exactly right. It's easy to be off just half a hair and say no big deal, it'll sand right out. Resist the temptation, it's an insidious habit that accumulates error, and will matter. Repeat to yourself over and over: "It's ALWAYS easier to fix things BEFORE glue dries". Accurate building makes the sanding job tons easier.

If some strips need twisting or sharp bending, use a heat gun. Ron and Darrell might say steam them. Whatever you settle on, heat application will work wonders to reduce resistance (pronounced "breakage").

4-oz cloth, I like that. Sometimes you begin to wonder if you're building TOO light, and in those cases my motto is: "If it breaks I'll fix it and make it stronger". In other words, there one good way to find out what works, hey? By the way, I've hardly ever had to go back and fix something 'cuz it was too lightly built, which keeps me convinced that most home-built boats contain an amply generous safety margin (read: are way overbuilt).

I use a cockpit on all my sea yaks that measures 29" x 17". That's the size of the egg-shaped hole I cut, so the inside dimensions are minus the .21" strip thickness all around that makes up the coaming riser. This produces a good looking cockpit that accepts a spray skirt snugly, yet allows easy access to the interior of the boat. I need to be able to sit my butt in the boat and bring my feet aboard last, so as to be able to get the ever-present mud off 'em. Some people need a longer opening to accomplish this, so if this sounds like something you want, might try a cardboard mockup first.

Image
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Re: Yet another build along!! (formerly kayak foundry?)

Post by Light Keeper's Kid »

8) 8) 8)
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Re: Yet another build along!! (formerly kayak foundry?)

Post by FishingSETX »

Thanks pogo,

I will definatly play with cockpit size once assembled. As for the lining up of the strips, when I build something I tend to obssess over every little detail to the point of being OCD!! Most people cant stand helping me work on a build of any kind due to this fact. I tend to overanelize and second guess myself constantly, and like you said, If it doesn't look exactly right, ill change it before the glue dries :D Heck, the deck I just built is square down to 1/32" corner to corner on a 15' X 21' deck!! and took 2 hours to get that way!!! I'll keep yall posted!!
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Re: Yet another build along!! (formerly kayak foundry?)

Post by bowgarguide »

Setx
A couple questions.
Are you stuck on 14 ft length, I have owned boats from 9.5 to16 ft long,and they just get better
with length,On any boat I build 15 ft is my minimum length,more carry capacity,tracks better,faster ,and more stable, and an extra foot are two ,you will never notice loading or unloading but you will notice it in performance.
Comfort, small cockpits and low decks have to fit are you cant stay in the boat very long,I would make a cardboard mock up of your decks and see how your feet and knees hit,nothing fancy just rough dimensions.I have two yaks one 13 ft the other 15ft 5 inches ,same hull design ,you would not believe the diffrence in tracking speed and stability in those two boats.

4 ounce glass on the outside should work ok ,but after building the few boats I have built I am a firm believer the inside is more important than the outside,I use my boats pretty hard and the Brazos in this area has shallows that have a lot of rock. My layup on cloth is 4 ounce outside 6 ounce on the inside and so far it is performing very well. On the last trip I took I saw it in action ,a friend had a boat built strip and glue glassed with cloth on the outside and just taped on the inside when he ran up on a rock the bottom would bow up ,a couple times he thought it was going to crack. Every wood boat hull failure I have seen the outside glass was beat up but the inside was broken.

No criticism in this post just something else to think about
Ron
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Re: Yet another build along!! (formerly kayak foundry?)

Post by Pogo »

Seems like I should know what OCD is... :?: :oops:

Anyway, it sounds AR. If I'm on the right track, I'll say it can be a good and bad thing. Taking the time to do everything exactly right is time well invested, for you shall save ten times in finish work. On the other hand, if you putz and fuddle endlessly, you never go paddling or fishing. I'm sure you already know this, but I thought it useful in reminding everyone that replies are not always meant just for Original Poster, but for all who read the thread now and later.

One other comment on strip thickness: All the accurate gluing in the world won't help if the strips vary at all, and milling them all exactly the same, without a final pass through a thickness planer (which I don't do 'cuz it's just too fussy), can be a challenge. What I've done is made a set of "sacred master strips" to use in setting the table saw fence whenever I rip strips. I store the half dozen ~8" long pieces in an honored spot in the tool locker, and use them each and every time to ensure consistency. So far it works very well. They also come in handy lots of other times whenever I need a quick example of a strip's thickness or width.

Edit: I agree with Ron 100%. I was gonna say something but didn't, recommend 16 feet might be more fun. Also agree with his 'glass comments.
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