Found while looking for something else and thought it should be posted here.
Has anybody, besides myself, made a practice of oversizing the line?
http://capmel.com/flying_in_a_kayak_or_canoe.htm
A good article on Fly fishing from a yak
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M-D
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Beware! Secrets revealed! More than you're supposed to know!
Over-lining is useful whenever you want to load the rod deeper on a shorter length of line. It would seem simple enough to just buy a line weight heavier and be done with it, but simple is not the rule when it comes to fly rods and lines. It should be, but isn't.
Given that many of the line manufacturers have abandoned the accurate use of the AFTMA (American Fly Tackle Manufacturers Association) system of line ratings, one may already be using a line that is one line-weight heavier. Buying a new line that is one line-weight heavier than your current line may in fact get you two line-weights above your rod's rated line. Your rod may have been rated incorrectly, as is common, so this wouldn't hurt a thing. On the other hand, if your rod was rated correctly, you now run the risk of breaking your rod, particularly if you try to make long casts with the heavier line. Most any rod will cast three line-weights effectively, however one never knows just where the rod's rating falls within that range. Is it a 6-7-8, a 7-8-9, or an 8-9-10? Any of these could be your 8 wt. and you have little way of knowing. This is really a messed-up system, but neither the rod manufacturers nor the line manufacturers see any point in changing things. They want to be able to call the shots of what the consumer knows, and are loathe to actually inform the buying public. "Trust us" seems to be the marketing strategy.
Then, there's the issue of the line's taper on a weight-forward line. Where, in that first thirty-feet of line, is the weight concentrated? A bonefish taper, for instance, has a long front-taper. Having twenty feet of that out the tiptop with the expectation that it would load the rod to any appreciable level will be met with disappointment. Bonefish lines are made for long casts in wind, thus the taper is tailored for those conditions. A line with a short front-taper will have more of the weight concentrated in the front end, thus allowing for quicker rod-loading with less line out the tiptop. A short front-taper is designed to turn over flies more effectively. Given the conditions we most encounter on the flats in Texas, a line such as the Scientific Angler's "Mastery" Head Start is well-suited for the task. It is not the best line for making long casts in wind, but realistically we dont make a lot of long casts. In addition, this line is one-half line weight heavier than what it is rated, so you also get the benefit of that. I've never weighed any of these lines to see how close they fall within the AFTMA range. Myself, I use the RIO Clouser line. It has a compound front-taper, also a short front-taper, that turns heavy flies over very effectively, but it also has a long head-length which is good for wind and distance, a long rear-taper which is good for accuracy, plus the ones that I've weighed have been very solidly one line-weight heavier than the stated rating. With that line I get the best of all worlds for the given conditions we have on the flats here in Texas. To each their own.
Basically, it just comes down to paying your money and taking your chances. The manufacturers dont want us to concern ourselves with such details. It's much better from their perspective to have us accept whatever they tell us as being gospel. If they'd adhere to the standards, we might not have to concern ourselves so much with it. As it is, at worst you might break a rod, though this is uncommon, at the least you could end up with a rod/line combination that isn't worth a darn, but maybe you'll hit it just right. Who knows?
Lesson and mini-rant over.
M-D
Over-lining is useful whenever you want to load the rod deeper on a shorter length of line. It would seem simple enough to just buy a line weight heavier and be done with it, but simple is not the rule when it comes to fly rods and lines. It should be, but isn't.
Given that many of the line manufacturers have abandoned the accurate use of the AFTMA (American Fly Tackle Manufacturers Association) system of line ratings, one may already be using a line that is one line-weight heavier. Buying a new line that is one line-weight heavier than your current line may in fact get you two line-weights above your rod's rated line. Your rod may have been rated incorrectly, as is common, so this wouldn't hurt a thing. On the other hand, if your rod was rated correctly, you now run the risk of breaking your rod, particularly if you try to make long casts with the heavier line. Most any rod will cast three line-weights effectively, however one never knows just where the rod's rating falls within that range. Is it a 6-7-8, a 7-8-9, or an 8-9-10? Any of these could be your 8 wt. and you have little way of knowing. This is really a messed-up system, but neither the rod manufacturers nor the line manufacturers see any point in changing things. They want to be able to call the shots of what the consumer knows, and are loathe to actually inform the buying public. "Trust us" seems to be the marketing strategy.
Then, there's the issue of the line's taper on a weight-forward line. Where, in that first thirty-feet of line, is the weight concentrated? A bonefish taper, for instance, has a long front-taper. Having twenty feet of that out the tiptop with the expectation that it would load the rod to any appreciable level will be met with disappointment. Bonefish lines are made for long casts in wind, thus the taper is tailored for those conditions. A line with a short front-taper will have more of the weight concentrated in the front end, thus allowing for quicker rod-loading with less line out the tiptop. A short front-taper is designed to turn over flies more effectively. Given the conditions we most encounter on the flats in Texas, a line such as the Scientific Angler's "Mastery" Head Start is well-suited for the task. It is not the best line for making long casts in wind, but realistically we dont make a lot of long casts. In addition, this line is one-half line weight heavier than what it is rated, so you also get the benefit of that. I've never weighed any of these lines to see how close they fall within the AFTMA range. Myself, I use the RIO Clouser line. It has a compound front-taper, also a short front-taper, that turns heavy flies over very effectively, but it also has a long head-length which is good for wind and distance, a long rear-taper which is good for accuracy, plus the ones that I've weighed have been very solidly one line-weight heavier than the stated rating. With that line I get the best of all worlds for the given conditions we have on the flats here in Texas. To each their own.
Basically, it just comes down to paying your money and taking your chances. The manufacturers dont want us to concern ourselves with such details. It's much better from their perspective to have us accept whatever they tell us as being gospel. If they'd adhere to the standards, we might not have to concern ourselves so much with it. As it is, at worst you might break a rod, though this is uncommon, at the least you could end up with a rod/line combination that isn't worth a darn, but maybe you'll hit it just right. Who knows?
Lesson and mini-rant over.
M-D
fly from kayaks
darn good article. Most of what it says, I had to learn the hard way. I recently 'gutted up' and purchased a rod that is designed for casting in windy conditions. We, in Houston, are fortunate to have some very knowledgable personel at our fly specialty shops, and they were the source of my line decisions. I use an 8 weight, rod with 9 wt line, front loaded. I cast sitting down in my kayak, and have no trouble sight casting and hooking reds and trout that are within 30 ft of me.
I suppose my only disagreement with the article was about his preference for a 10 wt, 10 ft rod. For an 'ol' fart' like me, I prefer the lightest rod that will do the job, as it is less tireing. But, that is just my opinion. The more knowedgable fly fishermen, such as MD, can offer a plethara of viable information on this very subjective subject.
I suppose my only disagreement with the article was about his preference for a 10 wt, 10 ft rod. For an 'ol' fart' like me, I prefer the lightest rod that will do the job, as it is less tireing. But, that is just my opinion. The more knowedgable fly fishermen, such as MD, can offer a plethara of viable information on this very subjective subject.
Overlining
I have been using an oversized shooting taper for years now. My blanks was "designed" for 9wt, but I typacally use from 10-13 on it depending on style length, etc of the line.
Here's an example- I called Cortland to find out if they had any overstock or blems from the previous year. They sent me a WF10I, clear line that was a blem. I tried that line just the way it was, and didn't like the "tug" it gave on delivery. Next step, I chopped off all of the running line that was a part of the line. I prefer to use a braided mono running line. I used a mike to be sure I have the correct spot. This didn't help much, so I started cutting off two foot sections until I got the "feel" I was looking for. This line slowly sinks, allowing me to fish just under the waves. I don't attempt to roll-cast pick-up unless I have quite a bit recovered. Water tension is too high to be effective.
I'll quit there.
Here's an example- I called Cortland to find out if they had any overstock or blems from the previous year. They sent me a WF10I, clear line that was a blem. I tried that line just the way it was, and didn't like the "tug" it gave on delivery. Next step, I chopped off all of the running line that was a part of the line. I prefer to use a braided mono running line. I used a mike to be sure I have the correct spot. This didn't help much, so I started cutting off two foot sections until I got the "feel" I was looking for. This line slowly sinks, allowing me to fish just under the waves. I don't attempt to roll-cast pick-up unless I have quite a bit recovered. Water tension is too high to be effective.
I'll quit there.
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ellisredfish
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Overlining
I agree with you totally, M-D. I really enjoyed PFC's article that he found.
line weights
different fly rods with the same weight rating can vary vastly from one another in their performance. Put an 8 wt. line on an 8 wt. St. Croix Avid, and it will be overloaded. Put that same line on an 8 wt. T&T Horizon, and it won't even fully load. Also the lines themselves differ...some 8 wt. lines are actually considered an "8-1/2"
Now take those issues and factor in the different casting styles of the individual users, and you have exponential differences all in an 8 wt. rig !
The bottom line is, there is no generalization about line weights and rods you can make. You're best first step is to question a knowledgable fly shop about the particular line and the particular rod. That way you can come close enough that you can cut way back on the $50 lines you buy for your rod.
Some shops also have lines all rigged up on demo reels that you can try one after the other on your rod. This gives you a quick comparison of how each line performs on your rod...while you can still remember the feel of the one you just took off.
The only thing you should absolutely take as gospel, is that when it comes to fly lines, SIZE MATTERS !
fredtoo
Now take those issues and factor in the different casting styles of the individual users, and you have exponential differences all in an 8 wt. rig !
The bottom line is, there is no generalization about line weights and rods you can make. You're best first step is to question a knowledgable fly shop about the particular line and the particular rod. That way you can come close enough that you can cut way back on the $50 lines you buy for your rod.
Some shops also have lines all rigged up on demo reels that you can try one after the other on your rod. This gives you a quick comparison of how each line performs on your rod...while you can still remember the feel of the one you just took off.
The only thing you should absolutely take as gospel, is that when it comes to fly lines, SIZE MATTERS !
fredtoo
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M-D
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That article does have some good tips in it. Thanks for sharing it Puck.
I do take exception to the notion that a longer rod should be used to alleviate line slap behind you. If the lines slaps the water behind you it is because the line went in the direction that the tip was going when it stopped, and having a longer rod wont change that little piece of physics. There are times when a longer rod is called for, such as reaching above obstructions that cannot be cleared with a high cast. Perhaps an extra foot of length would be helpful in such a scenario. It comes down to, if you want the line to go higher, stop the tip in that direction. Rod length has nothing to do with it. The same could be done with just the tip of the rod.
Exponential differences is right! Throw all the variables into the mix, and it's a wonder we ever find anything that works exceedingly well. The problem from a beginner's standpoint is that they dont have the experience required to know what works and what doesn't. As you said, Fred, find a good fly shop, and hopefully they'll be able to add some good input, and maybe take the time required to actually help a person find a good combination, rather than just sell them a bill of goods.
There is no substitute for casting, and casting as many combinations as possible. We really need to have us a fly-fishing party, bring all of our lines and rods, and have a free-for-all casting day or two. That's certainly do-able, dont you all think? (This idea did not originate with me. Blame Popasan.)
M-D
I do take exception to the notion that a longer rod should be used to alleviate line slap behind you. If the lines slaps the water behind you it is because the line went in the direction that the tip was going when it stopped, and having a longer rod wont change that little piece of physics. There are times when a longer rod is called for, such as reaching above obstructions that cannot be cleared with a high cast. Perhaps an extra foot of length would be helpful in such a scenario. It comes down to, if you want the line to go higher, stop the tip in that direction. Rod length has nothing to do with it. The same could be done with just the tip of the rod.
Exponential differences is right! Throw all the variables into the mix, and it's a wonder we ever find anything that works exceedingly well. The problem from a beginner's standpoint is that they dont have the experience required to know what works and what doesn't. As you said, Fred, find a good fly shop, and hopefully they'll be able to add some good input, and maybe take the time required to actually help a person find a good combination, rather than just sell them a bill of goods.
There is no substitute for casting, and casting as many combinations as possible. We really need to have us a fly-fishing party, bring all of our lines and rods, and have a free-for-all casting day or two. That's certainly do-able, dont you all think? (This idea did not originate with me. Blame Popasan.)
M-D
Fly-fishing party
good idea M-D. Should be only one rule though...each participant would have to clearly label the price of the rod before you handed it to someone to try. Some people might not want to fall in love with a $600 rod !!
Before you know it, you're selling the unused spare tire out of your wife's trunk to help finance that new Sage...
fredtoo
Before you know it, you're selling the unused spare tire out of your wife's trunk to help finance that new Sage...
fredtoo
guilty as charged my friend......i am working on getting a fly casting, tying, fun get together in AP, maybe in march/april.....something where we can get together as a group and try differant fly lines, rods, etc.....do a little tying also.....and maybe even squeeze in a little fishing..... 
if there is any interest out there, let me know......
Larry
if there is any interest out there, let me know......
Larry
March/April
Sounds good, Popasan...maybe the winds would likely be a little more favorable in April?
fredtoo
fredtoo
Interest in a meeting
Always interested in meeting with fellow Fliegenfischen folks. Logistics is always my problem this semester. I attend college in Lake Charles, LA, and travel to TX for the weekends. If you folks decide to get together on a Sat or Sun, keep me in mind.
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Chip Pitcairn
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Blindcasting
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Fly tying get together
Location and time? Feel free to drop a line if I can help.
While the weather is cool out is a good time to be at the "vice."
While the weather is cool out is a good time to be at the "vice."
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Spuds (Piscator Eximius)
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Wow! This is as awsome of a fishing thread that I have ever read.
Thanks for everyone's input.
My dad bought me a Shakespeare Wonder Rod, fly rod and fly tying kit when I graduated fron eighth grade. Man he was cool! Spent lots of hours trying to perfect both, then puberty kicked in and took up other interests.
I would be interested in a Fly-for-All. I can bring my BPS "White River 270" 8 wt. combo for comparison.
Thanks for everyone's input.
My dad bought me a Shakespeare Wonder Rod, fly rod and fly tying kit when I graduated fron eighth grade. Man he was cool! Spent lots of hours trying to perfect both, then puberty kicked in and took up other interests.
I would be interested in a Fly-for-All. I can bring my BPS "White River 270" 8 wt. combo for comparison.