Standing Up In Small Boats.

[Pogo]

Whoa, Gerald blew me out of the Roundup wrap-up thread in record time!! Well anyway, that's where the quote came from......
"Moderator note: Just keeping threads on topic."

...........I can stand up in it (the Triple X) but, as in any small paddled craft, you really can't do anything once you're standing up.

I routinely stand up in my Merlin to pole, paddle, cast the fly rod, chunk lures, irrigate the landscape, look for fish, pull lures out of trees, etc., etc., etc. Canoe Nut does the same in his Swift Shearwater solo canoe, and he's a big ol' boy at 6'-3" x 265 lbs. Yes, it can be done.




Sorry to intrude with my pics, but as they say, pictures are worth a thousand words.

[gerald]

I split this post off of the 2010 TKF Boat Builder Roundup Recap. I made a comment about being able to stand up in the Triple X boat but it's not really practical in small paddling craft. My contention is that small paddled craft are generally so small and squirrely that, even if you can stand up, you can't practically do anything. This is just my opinion. Pogo has another opinion and has posted some pictures in order to reinforce his opinion. Since such a discussion didn't belong in the Recap I have moved it here. Now we can discuss and pontificate till we're blue in the face.
I still don't think small paddled craft are good for standing in. If you make it wide and stable enough to stand in--it's a dog to paddle. You have to make a choice and design for what you want--paddlin' or standin'. Just my opinion. Not saying you can't do it. Just that's it's not generally practical. I have enough interest in such a boat that I may someday try to design one, but that's some time off.
Now...some canoes and pulling boats are fine to stand in--and they actually paddle pretty nice. These boats are getting pretty wide though. Choices, choices, choices....

[Pogo]

The Merlin's like 29" wide at its widest point. I show two different photos of me standing and fly fishing -- that's a heck of an "opinion".

I grant it's not everybody's cup of tea, but a blanket statement saying it isn't feasible is more than I'm willing to let go unchallenged. Sorry, I don't mean to argue, "pontificate", or whatever, but it ain't happening while I'm alive and standing (in my 15' x 29" canoe). Oh, and it's even easier to stand up in a Wenonah Advantage in ultralight kevlar layup. I know, 'cuz I own one of them too.

The 21" wide Outer Island might be considered a little tougher. Helps a great deal to have calm water, although it isn't absolutely necessary. I would agree with Gerald's assessment for this particular boat.

[gerald]

I want to see you cast a fly rod with that paddle on your head. I didn't make a blanket statement. I just said that it's not generally practical to stand in a small paddled craft and expect to be able to do anything of practical value with any regularity. I'm happy that you're able to do it. I applaud your balance and paddling skills. Wish you could have been at the Roundup and demonstrated all of it for us. We actually did miss you--believe it or not...

[gerald]

What the heck. We missed Ron, too. It would have been nice to have the twins there. Sort of like a family reunion....

[JEM]

I'd like to join in this one if I may.

I believe the ability to stand is a function of the paddler/stander as it is the boat. As you can see Pogo has a very good sense of balance.

Me, I can do it in some canoes, but it's a "puckering" experience. I've had occasion where I wanted to get a higher view while on the water but that's the exception and not the rule. Kneeling on the seat while paddling is the most I'm comfortably willing to do.

The skinny water guys almost NEED to stand if going after real spooky fish. Hence the birth of some really narrow skiffs.

A light weight boat that you can stand in like it's a jon boat and paddle like it's racer is the holy grail of paddle craft. But is there a design where even the clumsiest fellows can stand and be comfortable? That's a stretch but never say never.

[Pogo]

I'm always happy to demonstrate whatever I talk about. Any time, any place, no problem. Heck, I often demonstrate it to the fishes if nobody else is around.

I originally got the idea from the Cajuns, who routinely stand in their pirogues. I spent an awful lot of time in Louisiana among them, and learned that a boat one person thinks is tippy can actually be made into a "magic carpet" if you really want or need it. Saw them do it all the time. If they can do it, I ought to be able to also, right? I don't have exceptional balance, I'm basically doing the exact same thing a framer or steelworker is, who learns to walk around on two-by joists, rafters, I-beams, etc. And you learn this trade in July and August, when you HOPE to fall in the water!

[Pogo]

.......is there a design where even the clumsiest fellows can stand and be comfortable? That's a stretch but never say never.

Matt, it's always a pleasure to see you pipe up here! But this may be a possible point where you and Gerald, and I, part ways on fair terms. You guys are trying to sell boat building to the public, and I am not. The 'clumsiest fellow' get little, if any, sympathy from me. Maybe not the nicest thing to say, but still true enough. Y'all have reason to be concerned with him; I do not. I'm happy he's not sitting on his ass in front of the toob watching reruns of "Laverne & Shirley", but wouldn't mind if he took up golf or bird watching or something instead.

[gerald]

Hey JEM! (Matt...right?) How'ya doing? I believe you were well represented by some boats at the Roundup. Well done. Keep up the good work. Yeah...I agree that the skill and balance of the paddler comes into play when standing in a skinny boat. Even though pogo tries to be modest about his skills I'd have to say he's well above average. Still...I believe that there is potential for an efficient paddling boat that an average paddler can stand in. Maybe you can give it a thought and see what you come up with. I have some outrigger stuff kicking around in the back of my mind. Too many irons in the fire for me to work on one right now.

Pogo: Take me serious. We really do want to hear your opinions, see your pictures, and watch your demonstrations. I want you to quit being bashful and speak up man!

[gerald]

Awww, come on man! I didn't mean to start bashing the general paddling public. Actually...we are it. Sometimes it's actually better to be diplomatic. Life is much smoother that way. In any case...my skills are eroding with every day. Your time is coming. One of these days you'll meet another cocky, brash youngster spouting such stuff and you'll wonder just what kind of marshmellows that guy has in his head. Accept your mantle of respect and responsibility with class. Love to see and hear about more of your projects.
By the way...I just try to design the best boat for any given purpose that I can design. I'm not designing it for an average paddler. I design for a "task". I'm still working on that perfect general purpose boat. I'm getting closer!

[JEM]

Hey JEM! (Matt...right?) How'ya doing? I believe you were well represented by some boats at the Roundup. Well done. Keep up the good work. Yeah...I agree that the skill and balance of the paddler comes into play when standing in a skinny boat. Even though pogo tries to be modest about his skills I'd have to say he's well above average. Still...I believe that there is potential for an efficient paddling boat that an average paddler can stand in. Maybe you can give it a thought and see what you come up with. I have some outrigger stuff kicking around in the back of my mind. Too many irons in the fire for me to work on one right now.

Pogo: Take me serious. We really do want to hear your opinions, see your pictures, and watch your demonstrations. I want you to quit being bashful and speak up man!

Yes, it's Matt. Thanks. Loved the Triple X pictures.

The outrigger idea is appealing to me especially if it can be stowed and deployed easily and while on open water. There's a couple of plastic ones that have an outrigger system but they just look awkward to me.

[Pogo]

TKF and diplomacy are like oil and water. Cannot happen, will not happen, probably should not happen. When rash attempts at it are made, vast tracts of pristine wetlands are contaminated, countless breeding birds are killed, untold damage to benthic and pelagic lifeforms ensue disrupting the food web for years, and even decades, to come. Stop the crazy talk, wouldja?

I'm serious. One more person says 'diplomacy' around here, and I'm on the rooftop with an AK-47.

Whooooops -- one more edit. No, I'm not really serious about the ..... well, you know.

[barditch]

Speaking for the "klutz" minority, the ability to stand, fishing reasons aside, is really beneficial. The ability to occasionally stand up relieves all manner of problems w/knees(my prob), hips, lower back, etc. For some of us, relief is just a 3-5 minute stand up away! If it helps out fishing, so much the better. JMHO!

[gerald]

JEM (Matt): You're thinking along the same general idea that I am on the outrigger stuff. Work on it...come up with something good. Let us know. You also asked about a picture on the Recap thread. Certainly you can use them. If you send an email to gerald@brazosboatworks.com I can send you the originals. The ones I post on here are resized much smaller.

Barditch comes up with a very good reason why we DO need a boat we can stand in and stretch out.

[JEM]

I bought a book on outrigger canoes and started fooling around with a design.

I look at using lobster buoys at the end of a simple aluminum pole. Strap it to the deck with some bungees. That would be good if you paddled to a spot and wanted to stand up and stay there. Kind of bulky to store when not used.

I also looked at deployable ama/proa that would work better if you wanted to poll or stand-up paddle. Would track better. Little bit more complex system and the attachment system got more complicated than I liked. Then I couldn't decide if using one or two akas (connecting poles) is appropriate for something you deploy while on the water. Then of course what do you do with the ama/proa when it's not deployed? Has to stow out of the way somehow.

Never got any further than "sketches".

[bowgarguide]

I have one that should be interesting to yall ,had it drawn for a year just need to finish it.
I think it will fit that holy grail.Ron

[bowgarguide]

Pogo
Has to be taken with a grain of salt ,well maybe the whole salt shaker, now he stands up in boats thats true but he also paddles upside down, maybe thats why.
Now you talk about walking steel beams and learning how,well thats why you have to be tied off with a safety belt
Ron
I can do that to


I just dont have the mini skirt on

[preacher]

I just dont have the mini skirt on

I thought it was a Tutu

The Bumble Bee is wide enough to stand up in but I'm old so I just raised the seat so I don't have to stand up (to do anything ).