Culling Fish

[lpfishinag]

Don't know if this has been talked about recently because the search feature never works for me. With it being November and prime flounder fishing, this subject has been risen between my brother, dad, fishing buddy and I. I just wanted to let it be known for those that may have not read the annual in depth, but culling fish is illegal. Now, some of you may have been doing this for years and will disagree with me and tell me I am wrong, that is fine, but it will not change the wording of the annual or the ticket you may receive if caught doing so. The reason I am bringing this up is because I thought about trying it with the flounder limit at 2 for this month and I know others that have been doing this. On page 29 of the annual under the heading "Possession of Fish taken from Public Water. It states:Any fish not immediately released that are retained by using any type of holding device such as stringer, cooler, livewell, or bucket are considered in your possession and must adhere to established protected length and bag limits." The key word is bag limit. Once the fish is on your stringer or (donut with a net) it is in your possession and counts toward your bag limit. If you release it, alive or dead, it may no longer be in your possession, but it still counts toward your bag limit. With the bag limit at 2, if you catch a 3rd, release one from the stringer and replace it with the 3rd, you are still in possession of 2 but your bag limit is now at 3. This is illegal and a ticketable offense. Once a fish is in your bag limit, it can not be removed from it, even if you release it alive. Now, this does not mean that once you have 2 flounder you can not fish for other species or more flounder, but any flounder caught must be catch & released. The sentence prior to the above quoted sentence in the annual states : "Fish caught and immediately released are not considered to be in your possession." This means any fish that is caught, removed from hook, picture taken or not, then released is not considered in your possession. As long as it is released and NEVER makes it to a holding device such as a stringer, cooler, livewell, or bucket, then it is not considered in your possession or your bag limit, because it must be in your possession to be in your bag limit. So, if you already have 2 flounder, you can keep fishing for flounder, but must immediately release all that are caught. Or if you already have 2 flounder you can continue to fish for other species, such as reds, but again you must immediately released any flounder that is caught by accident. Now, how will a Game Warden know if you are culling, he won't, unless he specifically witnesses you releasing a fish and replacing it with another. Are the chances of getting caught high? No, look around for a GW if wading or get a boat. Will most people stop culling if they have been doing it forever and thought it to be legal? No, and they may not want to accept my interpretation of the law, but I guarantee you, it is illegal and you can get a ticket for it. I thought long and hard before coming to this conclusion and I know cases of people being ticketed. I for one, will not be culling in the future. I hope this clears anyone's questions and feel free to add input.

-Tim

[bogdog]

wow...awsome info and something i was unaware of. good to know.

[Thinwater skinner]

Yes, 2X... I had not read that close to the regulation... Not say I am guiltly, but did not know....

I have more than likely caught seven or eight crappy and then to late in the day decided to release all the fish for fight another day, and me not clean the tired poor souls...

No pictures either.

[larry long shadows]

Thanks ...

[Milkjug]

I agree with culling being bad, but not because it is illegal, I just think it is the wrong thing to do.

I feel we should respect the fish enough to release them as healthy as possible. This means rubber instead of twine mesh nets (or even better, a lip gripper), grabbing them with wet instead of dry hands, and not squeezing the crap out of them.

Stringers and donets are no good for fish. One punches a hole in the lip, the other rubs off massive amounts of their protective slime. If I string a fish, it is coming home with me. Releasing it after stringing it and dragging it around so I can upgrade to one a bit bigger is just plain greedy.

[Loren E]

well said Milkjug, I find that although some don't care, a lot of folks just don't understand proper fish handling techniques and end up thinking they are doing the fish a great favor by "releasing" them after grabbing them with dry hands, getting fingers in the gills, dragging them up in the dry sand, keeping them out of the water for 3 minutes, bad nets, boat bottom flopping, etc. This is where a little education goes a long way as those good intentions do nothing but feed the seals.

Even boga grips, something almost everyone uses out here in CA to hoist big stripers vertically for a weight, have been studied, and the results said that most fish over 10 pounds (snook were tested in Florida) that were lifted vertically lived for a few days and then all died, as holding their whole body weight up by a boga stretches out the tendons around the back of the jaw and inhibits them from feeding, essentially rendering them an iminent death.

Culling is likely going to kill 100% of fish unless you are putting fish in an aerated live well in a boat with ample room and minimal handling time, but even that exception is still putting the fish under a ton of excess stress.

When this conversation comes up on my local CA boards some argue, well if you really want the best for the fish then you shouldn't fish at all. That is a pretty silly thought in my opinion...there is a difference between enjoying our passion for fishing while minimizing the inevitable effect on the fish, versus killing fish that you don't plan to eat out of carelessness.

Sorry don't mean to sound like I'm ranting, just an issue that really touches home for me!

-Loren Elliott

[Cruisin_Cuda]

Very good post! I agree some people will disagree with you, but I won't be one of them! A true sportsmen/sportswoman has respect for the "environment" or "habitat" that they're in and for the "game" they are after. I usually know pretty quickly weither or not I am going to be hauling meat or just catch/release and either way they either become famous with a photo or they go on the string and onto the grill!

[Yaklash]

I agree with the notion that culling is bad...umkay.

Even if I know I'm likely to catch a bigger fish later, if a fish is hooked anywhere deep inside the mouth and is a legal keeper, I string it up and take it home. I have a normal net, but don't net most fish and never net a fish that is even close to not making length. I use my Boga to lip grab larger fish, but rarely weigh them or lift them completely out of the water, though I have to admit to having done it before to know if the trout was 8 lbs for the Star or should be released, but they weren't out of the water for more than a few seconds.

Interesting about the Boga-snook mortality stats.

[Lat22]

It's a hot topic on all Texas coastal fishing boards right now. If you string a fish or throw one in your do-net, you need to take those fish home. They won't survive otherwise. That, and the whole "it's illegal" thing.

[texan4ut]

Interesting, however I would like to point out that they cull fish in most fishing tournaments, especially bass tournaments. You can actually go to Academy and buy culling stringers. They have different colored floats so the angler can readily identify the smallest fish and replace it. Wouldn't think TPWD would allow that if it is illegal. I do believe if it is of legal size and you are keeping it then keep it. Now to raise another problem. Flounder limit is 2 in November and possesion is 2 in November. According to the TPWD guideline Possesion limit does not apply to wildlife resources in the possession of or stored by a person at their PERMANENT residence. If I am on a 3 day fishing trip camped out I may only have in my possession 2 flounder, although I am allowed to catch 2 per day. Go figure.

[jmac]

I release them all, but I appreciate the reminder of best handling techniques.

[G-Man]

Thanks for the post/reminder.

G-Man

[Graffix]

Thank you very much for this information. Being a newbie, I hadn't even heard of the term "culling fishing" and since I haven't caught enough fish one trip to do it, I hadn't really thought about it. I want to enjoy this sport using the correct rules/regulations and ethics. Thanks again.

Now, is it legal to cull wives? I saw a keeper at Hooters.

[Bigrock]

Don't know if this has been talked about recently because the search feature never works for me. With it being November and prime flounder fishing, this subject has been risen between my brother, dad, fishing buddy and I. I just wanted to let it be known for those that may have not read the annual in depth, but culling fish is illegal. Now, some of you may have been doing this for years and will disagree with me and tell me I am wrong, that is fine, but it will not change the wording of the annual or the ticket you may receive if caught doing so. The reason I am bringing this up is because I thought about trying it with the flounder limit at 2 for this month and I know others that have been doing this. On page 29 of the annual under the heading "Possession of Fish taken from Public Water. It states:Any fish not immediately released that are retained by using any type of holding device such as stringer, cooler, livewell, or bucket are considered in your possession and must adhere to established protected length and bag limits." The key word is bag limit. Once the fish is on your stringer or (donut with a net) it is in your possession and counts toward your bag limit. If you release it, alive or dead, it may no longer be in your possession, but it still counts toward your bag limit. With the bag limit at 2, if you catch a 3rd, release one from the stringer and replace it with the 3rd, you are still in possession of 2 but your bag limit is now at 3. This is illegal and a ticketable offense. Once a fish is in your bag limit, it can not be removed from it, even if you release it alive. Now, this does not mean that once you have 2 flounder you can not fish for other species or more flounder, but any flounder caught must be catch & released. The sentence prior to the above quoted sentence in the annual states : "Fish caught and immediately released are not considered to be in your possession." This means any fish that is caught, removed from hook, picture taken or not, then released is not considered in your possession. As long as it is released and NEVER makes it to a holding device such as a stringer, cooler, livewell, or bucket, then it is not considered in your possession or your bag limit, because it must be in your possession to be in your bag limit. So, if you already have 2 flounder, you can keep fishing for flounder, but must immediately release all that are caught. Or if you already have 2 flounder you can continue to fish for other species, such as reds, but again you must immediately released any flounder that is caught by accident. Now, how will a Game Warden know if you are culling, he won't, unless he specifically witnesses you releasing a fish and replacing it with another. Are the chances of getting caught high? No, look around for a GW if wading or get a boat. Will most people stop culling if they have been doing it forever and thought it to be legal? No, and they may not want to accept my interpretation of the law, but I guarantee you, it is illegal and you can get a ticket for it. I thought long and hard before coming to this conclusion and I know cases of people being ticketed. I for one, will not be culling in the future. I hope this clears anyone's questions and feel free to add input.

-Tim

OK Tim...I'm stepping up to the plate and disagreeing with your premise that culling is illegal. Your assumption that once the fish is in your possession and becomes part of your bag limit, therefore no culling allowed, is erroneous.

I have personally had a conversation with a game warden about this. We were talking about catching spawning bass off their beds at Lake Amistad. I told him I could only catch the males off the bed and HE GAVE me the following advice. Catch the male, put him in the livewell to keep him from returning to the bed to protect it. Then catch the female as she then takes over the protectors role. When you're done, release the male back into the water, keep the female if so desired. He did say this though...

-the male must be of legal size to do this

-if you have a limit in the livewell when you do this, then adding the male to the livewell will be an over-limit infraction, even if holding him temporarily.

Nowhere in the page 29 paragraph is it stated that once a part of your bag there are no do-overs. Dove hunting...sure, no do-overs. Fishing...CULLING IS LEGAL...UNLESS specifically stated.

Example...p. 37-40 Exceptions to StatewideFreshwater Harvest Regulations. S&W1 and S&W3 under Bass (striped, white, and hybrid striped bass)

[elcoyote]

This is an interesting thread for sure. I wonder how, in the bass tournaments that I fish, the rules state that culling is permitted in order to upgrade to larger fish if it is in fact illegal. When we are polygraphed after the tournament, one of the questions that is asked is "did you break any tournament, local, state, or federal laws during the tournament?" So if I cull, and win the tournament, and then I am polygraphed, I can not answer that I did not break any laws. Why would Bass Champs permit culling if it were illegal? Why do FLW and B.A.S.S. Elite Series permit culling? They show it on their broadcasts, including when they fish Falcon Lake and Amistad, Fork and Toledo Bend. Does the culling law only apply in saltwater?
And I would tend to disagree with the statement of culled fish dying within a few days. If that were the case, a few days after one of our Bass Champs tournaments, there would be an average of about 1,000 fish dead and floating once they are released. That would definitely make some kind of news.

I have culled bass, and I will continue to do so until I am cited. I am not going to lose a tournament because I caught 5 dinks early on and then came in to weigh in several hours early.

[bubbagolf]

From reading the manual and the Texas Statutes (can't find the TPWD regulations), I think that the law does not expressly prohibit "culling". Criminal Statutes and Regulations must be clear for citizens to follow.

Here are my observations:

1. The manual is not the exact language of the law. One needs to read the Texas Statutes, TPWD Regulations and the court interpretations.

2. If you are culling, you should not keep more than the max limit allow in your possession at anytime. If you have more than the limit and weakening them, you may be charge with "Waste".

[Bigrock]

bubbagolf, I'm not picking on you (you do agree with my "culling is legal" premise ), I'm just using your post to help clarify some things

1. The manual is not the exact language of the law. One needs to read the Texas Statutes, TPWD Regulations and the court interpretations.

I agree, but the manual is what the state of Texas expects the lay outdoorsman to follow and obey.

2. If you are culling, you should not keep more than the max limit allow in your possession at anytime. If you have more than the limit and weakening them, you may be charge with "Waste".

If you have more than the limit at any time, you will be charged with having an over-limit.

Nowhere in the page 29 paragraph is it stated that once a part of your bag there are no do-overs. Dove hunting...sure, no do-overs. Fishing...CULLING IS LEGAL...UNLESS specifically stated.

Example...p. 37-40 Exceptions to StatewideFreshwater Harvest Regulations. S&W1 and S&W3 under Bass (striped, white, and hybrid striped bass)

The above was from the manual. Below is the link to the website page and excerpts from that page.

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/publication ... ions.phtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

-Exceptions to Statewide Harvest Regulations
The following lakes and streams have special regulations affecting bag limits, size limits, and/or device restrictions. In all cases not specifically listed here, statewide regulations apply.

-Red River (below Texoma)
For striped bass and hybrid striped bass, no minimum length limit and daily bag=5. Culling of striped bass is prohibited. For flathead catfish, minimum length limit=20 inches and daily bag=5.

-Texoma
For blue and channel catfish, minimum length limit=12 inches and daily bag=15. Only one blue catfish 30 inches or greater may be retained each day.
For flathead catfish, minimum length limit=20 inches and daily bag-5.
For black and white crappie, minimum length limit=10 inches and daily bag=37 in any combination. Possession limit=50.
During May, taking alligator gar is prohibited in the portion of Lake Texoma within the boundaries of Hagerman National Wildlife Refuge and from the U.S. 377 bridge (Willis Bridge) upstream to the IH 35 bridge
For striped bass and hybrid striped bass, no minimum length limit; daily bag =10 and possession limit=20. Only two striped or hybrid striped bass 20 inches or greater may be retained each day. Culling of striped bass and hybrid striped bass is prohibited. For white bass, no minimum length limit and daily bag=25.
For walleye, minimum length limit=18 inches and daily bag=5

These are the only restrictons on culling in the manual. Very specific. There is no mention of culling in the saltwater section.

There are three mentions of retaining all crappie caught. An example:

-Fork
For largemouth bass, length limit is a 16-24 slot. Bass 16 inches and less or 24 inches or greater in length may be retained.
Only one bass 24 inches or greater may be retained each day.
For black and white crappie caught from Dec. 1 through the last day of Feb., there is no minimum length limit, daily bag=25 in any combination, and all crappie caught must be retained.

There have been some very good points made in this thread about the ethics of culling and I agree with many of them. It just doesn't seem right to drag two 15" flounder around all day on a stringer looking for larger flounder. Tournament fishermen generally have the means to safely store their fish until and if they are culled, or are later released.

What I object to is the bad information in this thread and the fact that people are picking up on it as if it were fact. Clearly, the stated premise in the lead post that culling is illegal, is bad information.

[BENNY]

On page 29 of the annual under the heading "Possession of Fish taken from Public Water. It states:Any fish not immediately released that are retained by using any type of holding device such as stringer, cooler, livewell, or bucket are considered in your possession and must adhere to established protected length and bag limits." The key word is bag limit.

You are correct, the key word is "bag limit" meaning you can't be over your bag limit when retaining a fish. As long as the "possessed" fish in your livewell are released alive, you can cull as many fish as you want as long as you are not over your "bag" or "possession" limit.

[lpfishinag]

Upon further review, the ruling on this matter is overturned. I would like to apologize to everyone that has read or responded to this post, especially Bigrock for my "bad information". I know most of you have been fishing as long as I have been alive and probably blew a gasket when you read what I had to say. I knew of people getting ticketed "supposedly" for culling and read the annual very closely. I guess my mind read the words in a way to make culling illegal, because I thought people were getting cited for it and I wanted to clear things up for myself and others that may be questioning the subject. When in fact I was doing an injustice and giving people the wrong information. Why the change in position? I called the GW office and cleared up the issue, they were not answering the day I wrote this, wish they had . I assume the people cited were probably ticketed for length or possession limits. CULLING IS LEGAL. I agree that people should do their homework and understand a subject before they go off spouting the wrong information and misinforming others. I thought I had, but I was wrong. And trust me, I hate having to write this.


-Tim

[ecofly]

no sweat tim. thanks for the interesting topic.

[Bigrock]

Hey Tim...I've had more crow in my life than I like to think about. It was an interesting topic and made me study the issue a little closer. No harm in that.

Maybe someday we'll get together and do some culling of our own...beers or such.

[texan4ut]

Upon further review, the ruling on this matter is overturned. I would like to apologize to everyone that has read or responded to this post, especially Bigrock for my "bad information". I know most of you have been fishing as long as I have been alive and probably blew a gasket when you read what I had to say. I knew of people getting ticketed "supposedly" for culling and read the annual very closely. I guess my mind read the words in a way to make culling illegal, because I thought people were getting cited for it and I wanted to clear things up for myself and others that may be questioning the subject. When in fact I was doing an injustice and giving people the wrong information. Why the change in position? I called the GW office and cleared up the issue, they were not answering the day I wrote this, wish they had . I assume the people cited were probably ticketed for length or possession limits. CULLING IS LEGAL. I agree that people should do their homework and understand a subject before they go off spouting the wrong information and misinforming others. I thought I had, but I was wrong. And trust me, I hate having to write this.


-Tim

Look at this way, you got a conversation going and we all learned something.

[Deacon]

Nice bit of info. Thanks,

[lpfishinag]

Well, thanks for the understanding and that sounds good bigrock

[fish dirty]

This topic was resolved alot easier here than 2cool ,those guys have been on this subject all week and still dont get it.I know its legal but dont say it over there because they KNOW its not